Taking Maryo Chronicles to the Next Level...

Talk about Maryo and Mario :)

Moderator: SMC Team

Would *you* help, to get a great open source platform game into all the distro's & media?

Absolutely! (I'll contact FluXy right now...)
11
35%
If I knew something I could quickly / easily do...
17
55%
I hate free freedom, free games and all that free choice stuff.
3
10%
 
Total votes : 31

Postby helios » 27 Oct 2007 20:05

Wow, good information to know. Thanks for the research BJ!

So the questions that still need to be answered are what branch of Debian games ubuntu pulls from and if there's any criteria other than just "being there" (do they pull *all* games from that branch or just some?).

The fact that we have a listing on Debian unstable but not in Ubuntu repo's allso suggests that either:

a) It was only just listed there fairly recently
b) The merge between Ubuntu games and Debian games only happened recently and they haven't actually done a "pull Debian games into Ubuntu" yet
c) That if they have pulled from Debian that they only pulled from stable or...
d) They're not pulling *all* games and we weren't "selected" (if so *why*?)


Did you see any kind of date on when the change from being MOTU based to being Debian games based happened?
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Postby BowserJr » 27 Oct 2007 20:37

SMC is in Ubuntu Gutsy: http://packages.ubuntu.com/gutsy/games/smc . This is version 0.99.6. I'm guessing this was the latest Debian version when Gutsy packages were pulled. So I guess it's pretty safe to say that we'll also be in the next version of Ubuntu if we keep a stable version in Debian. I don't know what Debian's Games group is for, but I think we should be on it.

It is on the MOTU's "ready for packaging" so I guess we just missed out :( The edit to make the team inactive was made on the 5th October. They do also say "There are still many many wiki pages describing Games. Please help us to merge them in the debian wiki. If you have merge a page there, please delete it from the ubuntu wiki." I guess that's what's needed (by a Debian developer), just to make it all official.
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SMC is in UBUNTU! (sort of...)

Postby helios » 27 Oct 2007 23:02

Great news! Looks like they also probably have the music included, too 8) . I just tried to install it from the repo's on a machine that hadn't compiled SMC before and I got a couple of strange things:

a) No menu item
b) As you stated it's very old version.
c) The package installs cegui-2-1, but then the game gives an error about not finding libCEGUIDevILImageCodec.so unless it has cegui-2-1-dev which is in the repositories but isn't marked as a dependency. Thus as it is now the average ubuntu user could choose to install, but the game wouldn't actually run.

Funnily enough the maintainer is still listed as "Ubuntu MOTU developers".

Anyway, this is a HUGE step forward imho, now we just need to find out who to talk to to get the dependencies fixed, although I'm not sure how they'd feel about making a -dev package a standard dependency. How hard would it be to make SMC work with the standard cegui-2-1 (not -dev) for the purposes of the package?

Oh, and I got a name for us to chase up regarding Fedora's decision not to include SMC as it's "too similar to the original". Hans de Goede: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/HansdeGoede (I'll add it to the SMCE wiki page http://www.secretmaryo.org/wiki/index.php?title=SMCE)
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Postby BowserJr » 27 Oct 2007 23:32

Even though John Moser ( https://launchpad.net/~nigelenki ) was listed as the MOTU maintainer, the last person on the Ubuntu changelog is Steve Kowalik ( https://launchpad.net/~stevenk ), so I guess he's the person to be contacted.

I was very excited when I discovered it was in repos, but it does suck that the version doesn't actually work...

I don't think there's a problem with having dev packages as dependencies. The way Ubuntu dev packages are built is that the main package the "most used" bits and dev packages should just be for people writing software for it. It shouldn't be that dev packages are needed for compiling. I guess in Ubuntu you're not expected to compile stuff 8) .
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Postby youngheart80 » 30 Oct 2007 02:23

So, I got word back from the Software Freedom Law Center, but it's not very happy news. Not bad, just less than we were probably hoping for. I have copied their message below.

Mr. Gardner,

Your matter requires the attention of a competent copyright attorney.
Unfortunately, we at the Software Freedom Law Center cannot offer to
provide you legal assistance with this matter at this time because
matters for our current clients have exhausted our staff's capacity. I
advise you to seek competent counsel licensed in your jurisdiction to
help you with your legal needs.

Sincerely,

Daniel B. Ravicher
Legal Director
Software Freedom Law Center
1995 Broadway, 17th Fl.
New York, NY 10023
(212) 461-1902 direct
(212) 580-0800 main
(212) 580-0898 fax
ravicher@softwarefreedom.org
http://www.softwarefreedom.org


Guess this means the safest course would be to simply replace everything that might be suspect with original designs. Honestly, with the work Helios is doing, we're almost there anyway. :)
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Postby FluXy » 30 Oct 2007 09:04

Updated the wiki article and i have also done some research into these matters.
We are actually already quite safe mostly because everything is recreated from scratch and everything has a notable difference if similar :D


P.S : It seems we are already in Ubuntu see https://edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/smc
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Postby helios » 30 Oct 2007 21:12

Thanks for the updates Fluxy. I know I found them useful. I've also added some of the latest stuff that BowserJr and I found (maintainers, contact details, what you've posted here etc)

BowserJr and I were just talking about the update so that SMC is now in the repos. They didn't have us in Feisty, but then they changed their system to synch of Debian unstable, so now we're in there for Gutsy (yay!). Unfortunately the package is pretty old (0.99.6) and has a bug that stops it from working. It's importance is undecided at the moment, so I'd ask anyone reading this to help by going to https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/ ... bug/136435 and add a comment in the hopes that it get's fixed quickly. Maybe we could convince them to update to Debian's version (1.1) while they're at it.

Now we just need to make sure that Debian's version is as up to date as possible for Ubuntu's next synch, and possibly to get SMC moved over to the "stable" branch (hey, *I've* never had SMC crash! :) )

Still, this is a huge step forward. Fedora sounds like they're going to be a bit tougher, but as a Kubuntu user myself, I'm very, very happy! :D
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Postby BowserJr » 31 Oct 2007 08:00

Debian Import Freeze for Hardy is December 13th. This goes some ways to explaining why Gutsy's version is so old ;)

http://swik.net/dates

And
"Software packages in development are either uploaded to the project branch named unstable, also known as sid, or the experimental branch. Software packages uploaded to unstable are normally versions stable enough to be released by the original upstream developer, but with the added Debian-specific packaging and other modifications introduced by Debian developers. These additions may be new and untested. Software not ready yet for the unstable branch is typically placed in the experimental branch.

After a version of a software package has remained in unstable for a certain length of time (depending on the urgency of the software's changes), that package is automatically migrated to the testing branch. The package's migration to testing occurs only if no serious (release-critical) bugs in the package are reported and if other software needed for package functionality qualifies for inclusion in testing.

Since updates to Debian software packages between official releases do not contain new features, some choose to use the testing and unstable branches for their newer packages. However, these branches are less tested than stable, and unstable doesn't receive timely security updates.[6] Starting September 9, 2005[7] a testing security team provides security updates.[8] In particular, incautious upgrades to working unstable packages can sometimes seriously break software functionality.

After the packages in testing have matured and the goals for the next release are met, the testing branch becomes the next stable release. The latest stable release of Debian (etch) is 4.0. It was released on April 8, 2007.

The forthcoming version is codenamed "lenny""

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Debian
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Postby FluXy » 31 Oct 2007 08:39

The Debian SMC maintainer Muammar is often in IRC and seems to have already uploaded SMC 1.2 but it takes some time to get accepted.


[EDIT]

He also wanted to try to get SMC to stable :)
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Postby youngheart80 » 01 Nov 2007 05:03

Added a listing for SMC to the official package wishlist page for openSUSE ( http://en.opensuse.org/Wishlist_Games ). I used to use it before I started venturing into Kubuntu land so I still have my wiki log in with them. There are two repositories for openSUSE packages (which I think are rpm): official and third-party.

According to the openSUSE wiki,
only software with an OSI-compliant open-source license will be added to the openSUSE project.
At least on that front we have nothing to worth about. Nothing more is stated, that I have found yet, about what might prevent it from being added. That said, I haven't found out who the package maintainers are either.

If we could also get included in a number of the third-party repos, we'd have even better coverage for SUSE users. I'll go after some of those and see what I can dig up. Also updated wiki under openSUSE.
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The Fedora part of the equation

Postby helios » 09 Nov 2007 08:53

Seems like Fedora is going to be the tough nut to crack as they've already decided we're "too similar to the original". The games team seems to be co-ordinated by Jason Tibbits (http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/JasonTibbitts) so I've emailed him just to ask for some clarification.
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Fedora / Red Hat and SMC

Postby helios » 11 Nov 2007 07:18

Hmmm... to be honest, I hesitated about even posting this here, and I should point out that there are some opinions below that I don't even agree with, but it does show what I suspected about distro's feeling cautious about including SMC because of legal issues. In this case the distro in question is Fedora, one of the biggest ones around. They currently have a list of about 10 games specifically listed as "Will not package" (for Fedora's repos). SMC is one of those for being "Too similar to the original". Interestingly, most of the concern actually seems to revolve around "Maryo" being "confusingly similar" to the trademarked "Mario". Ugh. Secret Marco Chronicles anyone?.. Antonio? Guissepe?

It also seems to have been missed that I was more interested in what a *future version* of SMC would need to be like to get in, rather than what they thought *past versions* were like. It feels like a lot of people are judging SMC based on screenshots from old versions (with more Mario than Maryo), so I suspect that getting up to date screen shots / videos / SMC versions to people we ask to help us is key.

Anyway, enough banter. Here's the irc discussion (I wasn't part of this) sent to me as it happened on #fedora-devel.
For the record, "Spot" is the main contact for RedHat Legal.

[09:14] <tibbs> We have that game on our "do not package" list because it's
[09:14] <tibbs> "Too much like the original"
[09:14] <tibbs> but I'm not really sure how that gets determined.
[09:14] <tibbs> They're asking for some specifics of what they need to change in order to be acceptable for us
[09:14] <tibbs> and I have no clue.
[09:15] <spot> umm, what game is this?
[09:15] <tibbs> "Secret Maryo Chronicles"
[09:15] <tibbs> http://secretmaryo.org/
[09:16] <spot> well, without even looking at it
[09:16] <spot> "maryo"'s gotta go.
[09:16] <nphilipp> tibbs: the title for starters? this screams "trademark infringement"
[09:17] <tibbs> I wasn't aware that "Maryo" was trademarked.
[09:18] <spot> Infringement may occur when one party, the "infringer", uses a trademark which is identical or confusingly similar to a trademark owned by another party.
[09:18] <tibbs> And I have no clue how close you can get without infringing.
[09:18] <spot> Maryo is confusingly similar, such that one could easily be mistaken for the other.
[09:19] <f13> spot: similar to Mario?
[09:19] <notting> spot: so, Maryo == infringing, 'super pizza brothers' == ?
[09:20] <spot> notting: nintendo almost certainly has "super mario brothers" trademarked
[09:20] <tibbs> But "secret maryo chronicles" doesn't sound anything like "super mario brothers".
[09:20] <tibbs> Just the word in the middle is similar.
[09:20] <spot> yes, but they also have mario trademarked, i'm sure of it.
[09:21] <f13> tibbs: confusingly similar
[09:21] <mharris64> Turbo Marvin Brethren
[09:22] <tibbs> So you can trademark any combination of three words with an Italian sounding name in the middle?
[09:22] <tibbs> s/any combination/all combinations/
[09:22] <spot> ok, so calm down.
[09:22] <spot> trademarks have to do with relevance
[09:22] <tibbs> Honestly, very calm but still curious.
[09:22] <f13> oh wow, the music is a bit close too.
[09:22] <spot> nintendo has mario registered for use in a lot of areas
[09:22] <spot> one of them is video games
[09:23] <spot> so, you cannot make a video game called *Mario* without them coming at you
[09:23] <spot> or anything that is confusingly similar to Mario
[09:23] <spot> Maryo is confusingly similar
[09:24] <spot> Now, if it was called "secret plumber chronicles", it would be ok.
[09:24] <mharris64> I would imagine anything "Super.*Brothers" would also be considered a no go.
[09:24] <spot> mharris64: yes, i'd agree
[09:25] <tibbs> I can pass this on, but I wonder if things would be OK even if they renamed.
[09:25] <spot> i dunno, nintendo is rather litigious
[09:25] <tibbs> I mean, they're not the first to clone the SMB gameplay.
[09:25] <f13> I'd be wary of the music I heard
[09:25] <tibbs> But when you get down to things like the names of the powerups and such, I have no clue because I've not played the original.
[09:25] <mharris64> There was a game called "Gina Sisters" or something before, which was a clone of SMB, and I think they got sued.
[09:26] <mharris64> Google would likely have the skinny on that
[09:26] <tibbs> Commander Keen didn't.
[09:26] <f13> Commander Keen was not even close to this level of similarity though
[09:26] <spot> and the trademark holders for keen gave us permission
[09:26] <f13> oh wait, I misread the statement
[09:28] <tibbs> spot: We got permission for Keen? I didn't realize you actually asked them.
[09:28] <spot> yep.
[09:28] <spot> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giana_sisters
[09:30] <spot> tibbs: you can't copyright game play, but if a reasonable person would look at the two and say that one is a ripoff of the other, we really don't want it.
[09:31] <notting> spot: *cough* tetris *cough*
[09:31] <mharris64> *tris :)
[09:31] <spot> mushrooms, pipes, biting flowers, bullet bill, goombas
[09:31] <spot> it even looks like they're using identical copied sprites
[09:32] <mharris64> they probably are
[09:32] <mharris64> I played the game a million years ago
[09:34] <spot> tibbs: pretty much the only thing that would make us feel good about letting it into Fedora would be a total overhaul of their graphics, music, etc.
[09:34] <spot> tibbs: that, or Nintendo saying that they are fine with it.
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Postby Manscent » 11 Nov 2007 09:11

I think the name has to change before the game can be more widely accepted.
Maryo could change into Yomar or Omary

Also I can up with this rearrangement of the name Secret Maryo Chronicles

Chrono's Maryicle Crest

Someone posted a long time ago about changing the game character to Fluxy. At first I thought that it drew too much attention to fluxy and not enough credit to other contributers, but I really love the name fluxy. What if we took the first letter of either the first or last name of all the current/past contributors and made fluxy a last name out of them?

Other things that will have to be changed are enemy names that are similar, fire plant & star, Mushrooms, Pipes, yoshi signs, the fact that maryo becomes small when hit, the powerup falling down from the box, blocks that look too similar to mario blocks, music. It would be a huge ordeal, but I think it would allow the great designers and artists to flex their own creativity.
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Postby BowserJr » 11 Nov 2007 12:31

The image is still a huge problem. We've been using original sprites in the game for months now, but if you run a search:
http://images.google.co.uk/images?clien ... ages&gbv=2

12 of the first page results are old Maryo, 4 are new Maryo and 2 are overworld, which is also old Maryo.
This is what people see when they research the game...
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Postby Hasenfuss » 11 Nov 2007 20:48

Hello,

we could start a post with a collection of new ideas for the replacement of any Nintendo related things.

I'm sure there will be plenty of good ideas which aren't also impossible to realize :).

Here's some of my ideas:

- instead of a small/big char, we could give him some armor, so that we have a armor/unarmored char. (which can still remain in a way of small and big char, but with a different look) - a wandering shield could replace the red mushroom.
- instead of the fireball, we could give the char a banana to throw :) or an apple, or some oranges. Something he might be able to find and use in his world (we could replace the fire plant with a banana bush, or a small apple tree).
- instead of mushrooms (which is a vegetable :P), we could give our char fruits to play with :D.
- enemies should look different, helios got some great ideas (i like the small frog looking like monster). The replacement of turtles could be an Armadillo, which after jumping on it, will become a small ball, the char can pick up and throw like he can now with the turtle shells. Here is a real life example:
http://www.fotonatur.de/saeugetiere/dreibinden-guerteltier-xxtolypeutestricinctus.php
- the hovering platforms (which are moved by ghosts at the moment) could be bound to ropes, with a small wheel on top and ground, that way they aren't moved by ghosts anymore and look less Nintendo stylish.
- the gold pieces are cool :) i like em, but if there is a plan to remove/replace em, water drops would make a nice replacement :)

Well, just suggestions :)

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Postby helios » 11 Nov 2007 21:26

First up, my intention is only to share information and/or ideas. What everyone does with them is their own business. That said:

@ Manscent - I can't speak for anyone else, but personally I'd be happy enough with the name being FLuXy. After all, who's been working on this game 20 times longer than me? My apologies if anyone else has, too! Personally I also like the name Marco. It's a common italian name. Sound different, but still short, begins with M ends in O... Secret Marco World?

@ BJ - Hmm.. the images is a tricky thing, which presumably will get tricker over time as we have more and more releases. Short term, an email BCC'd to info@ "every domain we see an old Maryo image at" could help. Obviously the real problem is that the pictures aren't dynamic. This could be fixed by just having images with generic filenames and visible, easy to copy image URLS. We update them with each release and plead / encourage / request / demand everyone links to these "always up to date" versions directly. We won't get them all, but we'll get many more webistes' images updated than we do now! We can also use a free image hosting service to keep SMC's server bandwidth happy.



"Copied" spirites?
[09:31] <spot> it even looks like they're using identical copied sprites
[09:32] <mharris64> they probably are


We know that the images of the Gumba, Rex, Spike etc were redrawn and not just copied from the game. It's interesting to see that people less involved with SMC see that they look the same and *assume* we ripped the images off. Are they wrong? Yes. Can we change that? Unlikely. Would they think that about art / sound that was an original design? No. What is the current perception doing to SMC? I don't know, but I can guess.



We Can Stay Exactly The Same... Mostly.
I would also suggest that there is a lot that would be fine just as it is. Many parts of Mario Brothers also exist in hundreds of commercial games happily. Blocks, fireballs, clouds, pipes. These are all common. It's really only parts that are "confusingly similar" (especially to trademarks). I would guess this is really the parts fairly unique to Mario. Mario, mushrooms, turtles, Goomba's, bullet bills. There's only one series of games that make people think of these.



The good news!

The unique, "confusingly similar" parts in SMC are seen often, but are actually a fairly small part of the work behind the whole game. The largest parts, the gameplay, the code and general visual style, thankfully can't be copyrighted, or can be legally recreated. So if we just keep the overall *visual style* exactly the same, and even the *gameplay* the same, and just change the specific designs that are "confusingly similar" (to something different, but *with the same style and feel*) then we still have a unified vision (Mario style and gameplay), with unique designs that protect the project from being another "Giana Sisters" and opening up more distribution opportunites. Being more than "just another Mario clone" I suspect that it would be easier to get media attention and contributors too. Fortunately this has already been happening thanks to FluXy and the good folks of this community already. It can only get better as we go! :)[/u]
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Postby FluXy » 11 Nov 2007 23:55

Thanks for all the info gathering because i mostly don't have the time for it :D

Finally more information with the Fedora IRC log but it's not usable for us anymore since it misses up-to-dateness and depth.

Someone posted a long time ago about changing the game character to Fluxy. At first I thought that it drew too much attention to fluxy and not enough credit to other contributers, but I really love the name fluxy. What if we took the first letter of either the first or last name of all the current/past contributors and made fluxy a last name out of them?


Hehe, I don't yet think we need to change the Title yet but if we need/should to I will take it into account :)

Biggest problem after Goomba and Turtle graphics get replaced are :
- Recreated Music from XOC ( original Mario music played with real instruments )
- Mushroom Powerup ( maybe not even needed but there are nice similar fruits )
==> Melon, Mirabelle plum or Apricot



And don't forget to not assume Nintendo can just sue us ;)
Bad Example : There are other real Mario clones out there which are even sold like Mario Forever.


And from the wiki SMCE article :

There is no copyright infringement since the art and levels are not copied from any Nintendo's Super Mario games, but drawn from scratch and generally there is no more direct trademark infringement because we have quite a notable difference. Game mechanics cannot be copyrighted.
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Postby BowserJr » 12 Nov 2007 08:12

Hasenfuss wrote:we could give the char a banana to throw :) or an apple, or some oranges.
we could give our char fruits to play with :D.
water drops would make a nice replacement :)


It's Secret Sportacus Chronicles! :P

*yes, I realise you have to be a Lazytown fan to get this. I also realise most of you probably are not. It's still funny though :? *


We know that the images of the Gumba, Rex, Spike etc were redrawn and not just copied from the game. It's interesting to see that people less involved with SMC see that they look the same and *assume* we ripped the images off.

The sprites did used to be ripped a very long time ago, so if anyone's seen the really old screenshots, they might assume... ( http://www.secretmaryo.org/phpBB2/files/932_6_179.png )

I don't like the idea of changing the name, although clearly it's a sticking point. Again, websites probably wouldn't update (there are still websites listing it as Super Mario Clone...) and Secret FluXy Chronicles would just be weird. Would it be OK to just change the official name to SMC? Then the only reference to Maryo would be in game text, and the "copy" feeling would be removed from the title...

Biggest problem after Goomba and Turtle graphics get replaced are :
- Recreated Music from XOC ( original Mario music played with real instruments )
- Mushroom Powerup ( maybe not even needed but there are nice similar fruits )
==> Melon, Mirabelle plum or Apricot

No one ever mentions the piranha plant as a candidate for replacement, even though it looks really similar, and it's currently low-res and blocky...
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Postby Guest » 12 Nov 2007 08:52

That's a good point BJ, the piranha plant does need an overhaul. We should discuss a replacement in the feature requests.
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Postby freegamer » 13 Nov 2007 00:01

I will give some kind words on Free Gamer and see if I can send a few users your way.

In my last article on FG, I talked about playing games with my son and how disappointed I was with Super Tux. I had played SMC a little over 6 months ago (pre 1.0) and I was sceptical given the amount of copyright-ed media in the game at the time and the gameplay felt rough at the time too. SMC had a very unfinished feel about it, and in the open source game world that normal takes years to fix.

I have to say, I just compiled / played 1.2 and... wow... WOW! :shock:

SMC 1.2 looks and feels amazing. Whereas Super Tux seems like a worse Mario, SMC feels like a next-gen Mario. Great new graphics, awesome music, and generally very well put together. I can't wait to see what gets added in future versions.

Great work Fluxy+others, you've won another fan.
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